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Inverted radicle american chestnut grafting (other grafting methods added)

Discussion in 'Native Habitat' started by DLH, Apr 5, 2015.

  1. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    I bought 50 chestnuts from Larry (indianasam?) this past October planning on attempting grafting surviving american chestnuts and ozark chinkapins. I recieved some scionwood from the amhurst chestnut in Virginia and ozark chinkapin scion wood from Gerald Gardner from Missouri. I just wanted to share some pictures and my experiences.

    I first would cut the tap root and split it preparing for a cleft graft.
    [​IMG]

    Then I cut a wedge on my scion wood which I soak in hydrogen peroxide for a couple of minutes. Also clean my knife and pruners with rubbing alcohol before starting.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Lastly I fit the wedge into the cleft and make sure it's a good fit and wrap with parafilm to hold in moisture also wrap the cut end to retain moisture.

    [​IMG]

    Hopefully if all goes well should end up with this

    [​IMG]

    Any feedback or criticism is welcome.
     
  2. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Good question this is the part I'm not 100% on. But since I'm targeting surviving chestnuts only which have the blight but haven't been killed by it yet they have some resistance. Is the blight in the ground where it can effect the roots? These should be sirviving scion above ground indianasams nuts should just be roots. I know american chestnuts aren't ideal for habitat since they aren't blight resistant but I can't help myself they are one of my favorites and I'm trying to start my own hobby cross breeding program. Thanks for the response my goal is to have american x ozark chinkapin cross one day.
     
    NH Mountains likes this.
  3. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    That guy is great I wonder if he is still around? He reminds me of the guy I got the ozark chinkapin scions from he is in his late 80s I believe it would be great to meet someone like that too.
     
  4. buckvelvet

    buckvelvet 5 year old buck +

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2014
    Location:
    Mason County, MI. Zone 5B
    Very very interesting I didn't know hard woods was capable of doing this.
     
  5. Rally1148

    Rally1148 A good 3 year old buck

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Location:
    Montcalm County, MI (5a/5b)
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this... but this is my current understanding.
    I think that his are from the stand in Missaukee County. To the best of my knowledge, those trees are infected with a hypoviruluent strain (i.e. it's a strain of a virus that actually lessens the strength of the adverse effects of the chestnut blight, which leads to the blight not killing the host tree). If this is indeed the case, which again, from what I've read it is (although I could be very wrong) the resistance won't be passed to the offspring nuts because it isn't a genetic trait of the parents trees. Instead, it is a genetic trait of the virus infecting the parent trees, which is also infecting the chestnut blight itself. The only way for resistance in the offspring would be if they grew up in the same environment as the parents trees, and were thus exposed to the hypovirulence.

    Now...the amherst tree is, I believe, infected with the hypovirulence, and it most likely also has some sort of resistance. SO, a scion from this tree would be actively infected with the hypovirulence, which would subsequently infect your "rootstock", which would make the blight have less of an effect on it.




    This is an incredibly interesting endeavor. If I can get the materials together, I'd definitely be giving nut grafting a try.
     
  6. homegrownbucks

    homegrownbucks A good 3 year old buck

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2014
    I tried 5 with this method, also from Indiana Sam. The radicals are small compared to the examples I saw online for other chestnut cultivars. Also kinda flimsy, I tried to line up the cambium but it was tough, good luck I'll let u know if I have any luck.
     
  7. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    I would like some advice from everyone or any kind of direction I should have taken pictures but I became really busy. My American chestnuts and ozark chinkapin grafts were successful initially but over time the leaves started to turn more of a yellow color and eventually died. From what I could gather it was either iron chlorosis or high soil ph. I put these in rootmaker 18s with lucky dog soil less mix. I'm going to try this again next year and would like some ideas of what to do I was thinking:

    1. Send my mix in for a ph sample and adjust accordingly but I don't know how to lower the ph?

    2. Put them in their final locations soon after the grafts callus up.

    3. Water with a lower ph water source I used tap water and our area is a heavy limestone area. (Creeks have a green tint due to limestone)

    Any thoughts?
     
  8. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    I was using county water which I assume would be the same as city water. You think the promix is about the right ph then?
     
  9. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    I'm not sure what the ph of our rain is either I'm sure it's lower than our county water though. I was trying to collect rain water to use but I didn't
    Have a good way to do it I didn't think I would need it until it was too late. I think I'll pick some of that miracle grow up that you mention and try to collect rainwater the next time I try this spring.
     
  10. Rally1148

    Rally1148 A good 3 year old buck

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2015
    Location:
    Montcalm County, MI (5a/5b)

    I'd say you should first check the soil in the rm18s to Makeep sure it isn't compacted at the bottom. I had this happen with oaks. It leafs to uneven watering.
     
  11. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Updating my grafting attempts for 2016 below is one of my nut graft attempts for this year I'm hoping it does well and is a success this is from the surviving Amherst VA tree

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I have a good grade 55 gallon drum ready for rain collection too hopefully all goes well this year. I will update with more pictures later.
     
    H20fwler and buckvelvet like this.
  12. buckvelvet

    buckvelvet 5 year old buck +

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2014
    Location:
    Mason County, MI. Zone 5B
    This kind of stuff is pretty wild, i hope it's successful for you!
     
  13. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Update on my nut grafts this is a picture of the one above one has started putting down roots and the other hasn't yet I'm sure if I do my part the one that's putting roots on will be fine not sore on the other one yet.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    The pictures below is a new grafting method I'm trying to avoid any potential incompatibilty issues that can often pose a problem in chestnut grafting. This is called etiolated grafting which is just growing the chestnuts in the dark with no sunlight so they don't have any color as you can see my shoots look white almost. Then when they are 4-6 inches tall you cleft graft in the etiolated shoot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I thought I had a finished graft picture but I must have not uploaded it this at least gives a general idea.
     
  15. ncstewart

    ncstewart Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Any luck with these methods?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Sorry for the late response I've had success with all the above methods but I think I like the etiolation and inverted radicle grafting the best. My grafts have died the last two years I thought the first was ph of my water but not so convinced now this year I noticed something eating the roots after it was too late I don't know what it was but I can't grow these very well. I think part of it is they are very fragile while healing that graft Union which makes them susceptible to pests. The other part is I'm not very good at the growing part. Next year I'm collaborating with one of the American chestnut foundations can't remember which one but it's our KY chapter to graft some for them and they have a ton of experience growing them. Im hoping to graft the Amherst tree Adair tree and another tree that doesn't have blight yet but they are waiting on a federal permit to gather scion next year will be exciting for me anyways.
     
  17. yoderjac

    yoderjac 5 year old buck +

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Location:
    Zone 7A - Central VA
    Great thread! It must have started before I got here. I'm really impressed with your success with this. I've tried it with some of the hybrids, but had no success. Part may have been my technique, but part may have been incompatibility between rootstock and scion which I understand can be a problem with hybrids.

    For the growing part, I will say that I think water is the biggest sensitivity parameter with young container grown chestnuts. It has really taken me several years to get watering right. Rain water helps with pH since the mixes are adjusted to neutral, but when to water is the key. My best success has come from watering by weight. One more thing I've been doing in recent years is putting my wand on mist and misting the tops every now and then. While I believe optimal humidity is a second order factor, if it gets to extremes it can be problematic. If it gets over 90% (which is rarely a problem) the mix dries out so slowly they can get wet feet. More frequently, when starting these indoors in the winter, if you don't monitor humidity it can easily drop well below 30%. This can sometimes be problematic for the tops drying out. Misting can mitigate this.

    Looking forward to seeing more of you nut grafting technique escapades and glad to see you over here!

    Thanks,

    Jack
     
  18. DLH

    DLH Yearling... With promise

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    if you think you are having incompatibilty issues might consider the etiolation before grafting a lady in Canada told me that little trick I would think it would work for grafting hybrids. I'm gonna keep trying I'm actually considering contracting the grow part out next year just can't decide if I can trust someone to grow them through the season but it might be better than what I'm doing now. I know my water ph was on this year I used either rain water or tap with the ph adjusted with vinegar which I found doesn't take much 1/2 teaspoon a gallon dropped my ph from 7 to 6 I think a full teaspoon took it down in the 4s and I used the ph meter at work so I'm confident it wasn't too low or high. Glad you came over here your threads were some of the best to follow at the old place and I've asked you numerous questions pertaining to persimmons. I was telling someone else on here that I really enjoy the grafting part wish I just had people to graft different things for.
     
  19. yoderjac

    yoderjac 5 year old buck +

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2016
    Location:
    Zone 7A - Central VA
    Sometimes I wish I had that kind of focus. I tend to enjoy mastering something. Once I have the technique down and the learning curve flattens, whatever it is tends to become more work than challenge. While there are always slightly different challenges each year, I'm getting the growing part down fairly well. Last year I played around with multiple transplants between rootmaker containers and ended up with those particular chestnuts over 6' with 3/4" caliper by the time I planted them in early October. My biggest challenge has been cold stratification and germination Getting the balance right to avoid mold seems to have a lot of variables. This year I branched out to a few more trees including hazelntus, and DCO. I really enjoy the grafting part because it is still a challenge for me. I've done pretty well with bark grafting persimmons. Jujube grafting has been a challenge for me with mixed results. I haven't had as much time as I would like to play with nut grafting. I'm just starting T-budding. I've had moderate success with bench grafting. I still have a lot to learn about grafting.

    Thanks,

    Jack
     
  20. H20fwler

    H20fwler 5 year old buck +

    Joined:
    May 16, 2016
    Location:
    NW OHIO Zone 6A
    Very interesting thread! I've never even heard of some of this.
     

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