Any paw paw experts? - Transferred from QDMA forums

yoderjac

5 year old buck +
so i got some paw paw seeds and they are just now starting to germinate. Everything I have read says that they prefer shade their first year but then prefer more sun. I read that young seedlings can actually die if they are planted in full sun.
I've got two options:
1) I could keep them at the house in 5 gallon root trapper bags and keep them shaded then plant them next spring
or
2) I could plant the seedlings this fall in tree tubes and maybe the tree tubes would provide enough shade then when they pop out of the tree tubes they could handle the sun??
opinions??
thanks
todd
What zones R Paw Paw Good For?
Todd, you know when you use that word "expert" it means someone who lives more than 50 miles from you and has a connection to the Internet.(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I've not grown them from seed but have dug many small seedlings up in the woods and transplanted them.
Yes, they need sun protection for at least a year and sometimes two years. I don't use tree tubes, but it seems that this would provide good protection.
If I cage them (which I sometimes do) I will duct tape a garbage bag over the cage to provide mid day sun protection. They need some sun, so you don't want extreme shade. When they get growing good, just rip the tape and bag off the top of the cage. If I don't cage them, I just use some kind of makeshift shading from whatever is laying around. If you are lucky enough to have some poke weeds sprout up by them, that is good shade.(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Good luck with your paw paws and hopefully a real expert will chime in.
I have no experience growing paw paw but I have looked into them. We have them growing wild in our area in general but I have not seen any on my property.
I once had access to a property that was previously owned by a company whose execs were also PETA folks. The place had more issues with deer than you could imagine. You could see 200+ yards through the hardwoods with nothing green below about 6' because of the browse line. There was one exception...paw paw. These starving deer would not touch the leaves.
Of course, the fruit was consumed immediately.
I mostly find paw paw in the understory of hardwoods, so the shading of young trees makes sense. I also seem to find it in flood plain areas.
That is about the limit of my knowledge on paw paw.
Thanks,
Jack
One thing I have learned about paw paw from observing young ones - if you see one that appears to be dying, do give up on it just yet.
There is a wild one at the edge of my yard (I didn't plant it) that has died and come back from the roots three times. Its starting to become a big tree now and I think its out of the danger zone.
Sadly, one of the grafted trees that I've had growing for 5 years has started doing the same thing. It has numerous shoots coming back from the roots now, but below the graft - so if it lives, it could be good or bad.

Here is one of the better ones, and I have a few more that look this good.
mine all grow in the timber but don't have that many leaves.They do produce fruit.
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Originally Posted by buckdeer1
mine all grow in the timber but don't have that many leaves.They do produce fruit.
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Yes, they amaze me at how well they do in an understory. They will fruit better in full sun, but do extremely well with quite a bit of shade.
I agree with yoderj. I have mostly seen them in understory of hardwoods and in floodplains. I dug up some 4-5 footers and planted them in full sun. They did well for awhile but as spring turned to summer they died. I think shade for the first year is a must. I think I'll try it again only this time I'll plant them in the understory of hardwoods. Good luck!
...you'll find good pawpaw on benches of N to NW facing steep slopes....he likes dark dank places and some depth to the soil but maybe some filtered PM sun....kinda like an old root cellar environment....kinda musty...if you've got a place where shrooms produce reliably, then that would be a good spot for one.....in W OK morel will sometimes grow real well under shade of ERC in eroded ravines...but not sure how well pawpaw will do with ERC...but I can tell you the fungal presence is big benefit to pawpaw longevity. If you put him in a field...that is a bacterial soil....he won't do as well as in the forest. His trunk isn't real strong so he needs to be an understory tree where wind speed is lower and solar heat less intense.
I had a bunch of paw paw seeds earlier this year and threw them out. Nothing about them really appeals to me. There's far too many other trees that rank higher on this list for deer if diversity is what you're looking for.
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...you'll find good pawpaw on benches of N to NW facing steep slopes....he likes dark dank places and some depth to the soil but maybe some filtered PM sun....kinda like an old root cellar environment....kinda musty...if you've got a place where shrooms produce reliably, then that would be a good spot for one.....in W OK morel will sometimes grow real well under shade of ERC in eroded ravines...but not sure how well pawpaw will do with ERC...but I can tell you the fungal presence is big benefit to pawpaw longevity. If you put him in a field...that is a bacterial soil....he won't do as well as in the forest. His trunk isn't real strong so he needs to be an understory tree where wind speed is lower and solar heat less intense.
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Interesting... I just discovered my paw paws this weekend (I've lived on the place for almost 2 years and have worked hard to make a list of all of my tree species, but didn't see this guy until Saturday) but it is at the very top of a NNW facing slope in pretty heavy oak shade. I did some small scale TSI and hinge cutting up there this winter that lets in some light from the South and SE (during the spring in particular) and now this tree is blowing up.
But based on location alone it would be almost completely protected from the hottest part of the afternoon summer sun, and the winds from our nasty (and awesome) Kansas thunderstorms.
I'll have to keep this in mind when I plant a few more this fall.
All I know is that I have them along a stream on my place and where shaded most of the time - once we did a timber cut the additional light caused an explosion of fruit. The coons wiped them out before a single one hit the ground. I have never grown them on purpose. They seem to like a broken malance of sun and shade and ample water being available as well. Other then the fruit I have seen no wildlife value to them.
 
I have 3 that I've been growing from seedlings for 3 years. All were planted in 3 gallon roottrappers originally. The first summer they all died back but put out the next spring. When they started dying back again I moved them to pretty much full shade and they did better.
I planted two in the ground last spring. One in pretty heavy shade did very well, the other in almost full sun started getting crispy by mid-summer, so I moved a few other potted trees around it to give some shade, and it did well the rest of the year. The other was still in the pot and shed leaves late summer. All were in my garden and get adequate irrigation.
This spring all 3 put out strong new growth. The two in the ground have no shade any longer and so far look good. The one in the pot has some shade from taller potted trees next to it and has done great. We'll see if they are finally old enough to grow in mostly full sun through the summer.
My findings: they need shade from fierce summer sun when young, and you'll think they're dead many times but they seem to come back.
After Brush got on me about planting trees and cuttings in the woods(shade), i planted 50 PawPaw's around the edge of a field against the woods in full sun. Figures i did it wrong.
I planted 6 at my house in the woods and they seem to be doing ok.
^
^
I don't want to laugh, I really don't, but what you've just said describes about 70% of my projects in a nutshell.
But we live & learn, right?
Dogdoc,
So how did your pawpaw seeds work out?
THanks
Jack
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Dogdoc,
So how did your pawpaw seeds work out?
THanks
Jack
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Those seeds take a long time to germinate. I've got 4 out of 12 that I have transplanted into to 1 gallon rootmaker pots. The other 8 have not germinated yet.
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Those seeds take a long time to germinate. I've got 4 out of 12 that I have transplanted into to 1 gallon rootmaker pots. The other 8 have not germinated yet.
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Pawpaw are on my "to consider" list. Since you are ahead of me, you may know the answers. I have not been able to find much specific variety information. I've seen the general Aug-Oct ripening window. I'd like to find peak ripening dates for each variety in my zone (7a). I wonder if they have varieties that drop in October, our archery season. If I can find some varieties that do, I was thinking of starting some seeds this winter and growing a few indoors under lights with my other trees.
I ordered mine from a guy and just got a dozen seeds to play around from. Supposedly the seeds are from several different places so they have genetic differences and will cross pollinate with each other. I have read that it may take up to 7 months for a seed to germinate--don't know if that is true or not but I have been trying to germinate now for 3 months and only have 4 germinating. They kinda look like a "fat" persimmon seed. Take up to 7 years to fruit and are suppose to ripen from late september into october. Mine came from Indiana I think.
todd
Todd,
I sent the email below to Cliff and his response is below that...
-----Start Clip -----------
Cliff,
I’ve just started to take a look at Pawpaw. It seems to be hard to find detailed ripening information other than the general Aug-Oct. Do you have trees that ripen in October? I was thinking of getting some seed and starting them under lights this winter with my other trees and then growing them in rootmaker containers for a season or two where I can keep them in the shade grafting some variety that ripens in October and finally planting them in full sun.
Just wondering if this sounds like a reasonable plan or if there are any that would wait until Oct to ripen in my zone (7a).
Thanks,
jack
Jack
It is true that Pawpaws Ripen from Aug to OCT but there is wide diversity in timing
Take for example Summer Delight It is Ripening now and it is the earliest that the Industry knows of and for example COX # 1 ripen in November given it is warm and the fruit have time to ripen and with seed you have the very wide area of fruiting and the quality of the fruit from seed is hard to judge but if both parent are good large fruit that is about 90% chance that the offspring will be as good.
If you will go to our Face book page there is a Discussion on the Germination of Pawpaw seed on the front page.
Not sure where you are but remember the root cannot freeze the tree can but not the roots as regard to winter temps the ground never gets below 30 and ice is an insulator
Your ideal will work and that is the best way to pursue it We just plant in a greenhouse and in March the seedling will grow to 6 to 18 inches the first year and to 4 to 6 foot the second year so we have to keep an revolving crop of seed in the ground
I’ll be out this evening on the farm If you have any question just give me a call
THX
Cliff
Thank you
Kumme and Clifford England
England’s Orchard and Nursery
2338 HIGHWAY 2004
Mc Kee, KY. 40447-8342
Specializing in alternative crops.
www.nuttrees.net
Email: <nuttrees@prtcnet.org
Ph. # 606 965 2228
See us On FACEBOOK @ <https://www.facebook.com/Kynuttrees
-------- End Clip --------
Thanks,
Jack
 
Well, paw paw are now off my consider list and on my to do list. I just ordered 18 seeds. After a short chat with Cliff, he recommended 250-39 so it looks like that is what I'm getting.
The Kentucky State University Paw paw research program will send you 10 seeds for free. They collect seed when they harvest the fruit. Send a request to <sheri.crabtree@kysu.edu Plenty of good paw paw info on their website.
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Originally Posted by chickenlittle
The Kentucky State University Paw paw research program will send you 10 seeds for free. They collect seed when they harvest the fruit. Send a request to <sheri.crabtree@kysu.edu Plenty of good paw paw info on their website.
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I sent her an email a week ago or so inquiring about this and never heard back?
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
I sent her an email a week ago or so inquiring about this and never heard back?
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Try again. I heard back from her within a day. She said it would be a couple of weeks before they get the seeds out.
todd
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Well, paw paw are now off my consider list and on my to do list. I just ordered 18 seeds. After a short chat with Cliff, he recommended 250-39 so it looks like that is what I'm getting.
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What did you come up with on drop dates? I decided against them based on the fact that the seeds I collected where from early August dropping trees. If I could get my hands on some October dropping seeds that would be the cats meow.
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Originally Posted by Twig
What did you come up with on drop dates? I decided against them based on the fact that the seeds I collected where from early August dropping trees. If I could get my hands on some October dropping seeds that would be the cats meow.
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Cliff said 250-39 are currently ripening now. In a previous email he mentioned one variety that does not ripen until Nov but needs a long growing season so it may depend on your climate.
yoder ,
where are you getting those from? The late dropping one's would be great on my property in Mississippi.
A friend of mine runs a native plant nursery and I have heard her say you really have to watch paw paw's the first year because a good cold spell will kill them. If you put them out make sure you mulch them well.
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Originally Posted by R Keaghey
yoder ,
where are you getting those from? The late dropping one's would be great on my property in Mississippi.
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I ordered the 250-39s from Cliff England. They are premium seed so they are expensive. My plan is just to start a few and propagate them from there. I also sent a request to KSU for common seed and have not heard back.
The seed price from England's is certainly premium at $5 each. The KYSU seed is from their orchards of the Susquehanna and Sunflower varieties. The 250-39 is listed as a Sunflower cross.
Just herd back for KSU. They are backed up but will be shipping me 10 seeds for free! These will need to be stratified. The seeds I'm getting from Cliff are ready to go upon receipt.
I received and planted the 250x39 pawpaw sees I received from England's today. Cliff miscounted (probably intentionally) and included an extra seed. The clock is now ticking on these pawpaws.
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I received and planted the 100x39 pawpaw sees I received from England's today. Cliff miscounted (probably intentionally) and included an extra seed. The clock is now ticking on these pawpaws.
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good luck--hope you have better success than I did. I just ordered mine off ebay from a person from Indiana. The 5 plants that I do have though are doing well. I have 5 of them in gallon rootmakers and 1 in a root trapper bag.
I assume you are using 18 root maker? i used larger pots bc I wanted a longer tap root.
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
good luck--hope you have better success than I did. I just ordered mine off ebay from a person from Indiana. The 5 plants that I do have though are doing well. I have 5 of them in gallon rootmakers and 1 in a root trapper bag.
I assume you are using 18 root maker? i used larger pots bc I wanted a longer tap root.
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Yes, I'm using 18s. My plan is to keep these at home for 2 years upsizing them in rootmakers.
I thought about using tall containers for trees with a long tap root. When I dug into it, I could not find a logical argument for it. Once the tap root is pruned, it is pruned. It doesn't matter if it is pruned at 4&quot;, 6&quot; or a foot, it is still pruned. I certainly understand direct seeding where the tap root grows deep enough to get down to the water table. However a little longer tap root seems to serve no purpose. Second, the longer that pruned tap root is before pruning occurs, the longer the delay in root branching.
Some of this may depend on your soils and water table, but I can't find a good argument for tall containers to start if you plan to root prune. Certainly, if you plant to start a long tap root tree indoors and plant it in the spring, a tall narrow container makes sense. In this case, the tree is transplanted before the tap root is pruned.
I considered going that route with the pawpaws, but after doing some reading I decided against it. From what I understand, they are photosensitive when they are young but fruit best as older trees when they get full sun. I figured it was easier to containerize them for 2 seasons where I can limit sun and then plant them with a well developed rootmaker root system in the final location with full sun. I do know some folks plant them at the final location and come up with some way to shade them until they get older.
Thanks,
Jack
that is a good point Jack. The reason I put them in 1 gallon rootmaker pots is this spring when I was germinating persimmons I had my seeds in a gallon baggie with some potting soil in the fridge. When I took them out I put them in 18's and placed the baggie on the table in my sunroom. Well about 3 weeks later I was cleaning the sunroom and was going to throw away the baggie and I noticed I had left a persimmon seed in the baggie and it had germinated and had about a 4&quot; taproot. I didn't want to damage the taproot so I just put it in a gallon rootmaker I had empty. That one seed out performed all the seeds in the 18 and as of today that one persimmon tree is twice the size. I transplanted it last week to its final destination and the roots on the persimmon were incredible.
best of luck with the pawpaws
todd
 
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
that is a good point Jack. The reason I put them in 1 gallon rootmaker pots is this spring when I was germinating persimmons I had my seeds in a gallon baggie with some potting soil in the fridge. When I took them out I put them in 18's and placed the baggie on the table in my sunroom. Well about 3 weeks later I was cleaning the sunroom and was going to throw away the baggie and I noticed I had left a persimmon seed in the baggie and it had germinated and had about a 4&quot; taproot. I didn't want to damage the taproot so I just put it in a gallon rootmaker I had empty. That one seed out performed all the seeds in the 18 and as of today that one persimmon tree is twice the size. I transplanted it last week to its final destination and the roots on the persimmon were incredible.
best of luck with the pawpaws
todd
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Todd,
That is good empirical data. I'm not contending that I'm right. There are certainly many folks using tall root training type pots for long tap rooted trees. I'm just saying that I can't figure out the theory to support that approach. I tried an experiment this year. I germinated my persimmons in flats and transplanted them to 18s, but I also transplanted a few to 1 gal rootbuilder II containers. Most of the ones in 18s were planted in the field, but I saved some and transplanted them to 1 gals at about 16 weeks. Now, at the end of the growing season, I can't see much difference in top growth. I have not opened any of the 1 gal containers to see if there is a difference in root system development.
Cliff told me that pawpaw will root prune, so I decided to go the tried and true route with those expensive seeds. If I'm able to get some more native pawpaw seed (still looking) or when I get the KSU seed, I may try to make some of my homebrew air pruning pots deep and narrow and see if there is a difference.
Thanks,
jack
Thanks,
Jack
don't get me wrong. i started a lot of apple and pear trees in the 32 and then moved them up to the 18's and the root mass is great. After the 18's I moved them to the super air pots that I have purchased. I love those pots. I think their are rootmaker brands just like the super air pots. I like the multiple air pruning holes compared to the actual 1 gallon rootmaker pots. The persimmon trees in the rootmaker pots still had a lot of &quot;semi-circling&quot; but with the super air pots there was no circling at all---just tons and tons of little feeder roots. I don't know in the long run that it will make a lot of difference. I just took 6 apple seedlings out of the gallon super root pots and placed then in 5 gallon root trapper bags. I will be over wintering these at home and then grafting them next spring. My plan is to plant them the winter of 2015 when they are dormant---if they make it. I will mulch them heavily outside and let them wake up with the change of season.
All just a hobby and fun to try different techniques.
good luck
todd
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
don't get me wrong. i started a lot of apple and pear trees in the 32 and then moved them up to the 18's and the root mass is great. After the 18's I moved them to the super air pots that I have purchased. I love those pots. I think their are rootmaker brands just like the super air pots. I like the multiple air pruning holes compared to the actual 1 gallon rootmaker pots. The persimmon trees in the rootmaker pots still had a lot of &quot;semi-circling&quot; but with the super air pots there was no circling at all---just tons and tons of little feeder roots. I don't know in the long run that it will make a lot of difference. I just took 6 apple seedlings out of the gallon super root pots and placed then in 5 gallon root trapper bags. I will be over wintering these at home and then grafting them next spring. My plan is to plant them the winter of 2015 when they are dormant---if they make it. I will mulch them heavily outside and let them wake up with the change of season.
All just a hobby and fun to try different techniques.
good luck
todd
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todd,
Of all the other air pruning pots I've seen, those superroot air pots seem the closest to rootbuilder II pots to me. The only difference is the bottom. The rootbuilder pots have bottoms that are convex with plastic ridges to guide the roots to the outer holes where they are air pruned. The superroot pots directly air prune at the bottom as long as there is air flow underneath. The only downside I see to that is the surface you place them on may be limited to ensure air flow.
The only other thing is the price, but if you use them enough years that may not be as important. It looks like they are running about $6+ per pot for 3 gal versions. I just ordered 3 gal rootbuilder II pots for $3+. In both cases that excludes any shipping. I only checked a few sources for superroot pot prices so you may be able to find them cheaper.
Thanks,
Jack
I have used the tall pots for a few different experiments over the years. Soil is tough because of the deep pot. It must be a very light mix.
One year I potted several seedlings for the summer. Not a good outcome.
I've also seeded into them and had a pot full of roots by fall. Seems that I find 4-5 strong roots will pretty much run the length of the pot this way. Tree growth seems ok.
Again, nothing real scientific with my experience.
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Originally Posted by Fish
I have used the tall pots for a few different experiments over the years. Soil is tough because of the deep pot. It must be a very light mix.
One year I potted several seedlings for the summer. Not a good outcome.
I've also seeded into them and had a pot full of roots by fall. Seems that I find 4-5 strong roots will pretty much run the length of the pot this way. Tree growth seems ok.
Again, nothing real scientific with my experience.
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and my accidental experiment was only one persimmon tree and it could have just been a very vigorous tree but the tap root was too long to stick in an 18 so that is why it got one of the gallon pots. Another reason may be that I left the persimmons in the 18's too long and that slowed down there growth a bit.
who knows
Jack---you must get the wholesale price on your pots but the retail was actually more for the root builder pots than the super air pots but I searched a lot of sites to find the best price.
todd
 
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
and my accidental experiment was only one persimmon tree and it could have just been a very vigorous tree but the tap root was too long to stick in an 18 so that is why it got one of the gallon pots. Another reason may be that I left the persimmons in the 18's too long and that slowed down there growth a bit.
who knows
Jack---you must get the wholesale price on your pots but the retail was actually more for the root builder pots than the super air pots but I searched a lot of sites to find the best price.
todd
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Yes, our pine farm is setup as a business, L.L.C. I had no problem setting up a commercial account with Rootmaker. The minimum order is only $50. The propagation containers are generally in lots of 25 or 50, the rootbuilder II are generally in lots of 50, and the RootTrapper bags are generally sold in lots of 10 or 5 for the larger ones.
If you have a business and use them in significant number, it is worth setting up an account.
Thanks,
Jack
Todd,
One more note on the commercial account. Keep in mind that while the prices are lower, shipping is generally higher than retail depending on what you buy. Rootmaker uses factories in different locations for different components.
For example, the 3 gal rootbuilder II pots I just bought were shipped from both Alabama and Texas. The sides and connectors were shipped from one location and the bottoms from the other. So instead of one UPS bill there are two.
So, your TYD cost really depends on what you buy. Bags, for example, don't have multiple components and come from a single location.
Just wanted to make a fair comparison between prices....
Jack
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Originally Posted by chickenlittle
The Kentucky State University Paw paw research program will send you 10 seeds for free. They collect seed when they harvest the fruit. Send a request to <sheri.crabtree@kysu.edu Plenty of good paw paw info on their website.
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I received my seeds from KSU today. I put them in my new stratification system: <http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66820
The bag said 2013 seed. The seed had not started to germinate but there was no note that said it was already cold stratified. Seems odd. How could 2013 seed be stored unless it was stratified?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jack
I think it would have to be stratified. You might send them an email. Then u could get them started right away.
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
I think it would have to be stratified. You might send them an email. Then u could get them started right away.
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That was my thought as well. Email has already been sent but I'm leaving town to hunt tomorrow morning. I was hoping someone had already asked...
Thanks,
Jack
I received mine in the mail yesterday as well.....I tossed them right into the fridge as I assume they are not stratified yet.
Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to shade these trees when little if I want them to be along a field edge where they will get good sun when older? What about a &quot;frame&quot; with burlap or something over it to help cut the direct light? Any thoughts?
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
I received mine in the mail yesterday as well.....I tossed them right into the fridge as I assume they are not stratified yet.
Does anyone have any thoughts on ways to shade these trees when little if I want them to be along a field edge where they will get good sun when older? What about a &quot;frame&quot; with burlap or something over it to help cut the direct light? Any thoughts?
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I had a chat with Cliff England, the orchardist that sold me my premium seed. I ran my plan past him and he thought it was a good one. From the reading I've done, some pawpaw seem more photosensitive when young than others. My plan is to keep them in air pruning containers for two growing seasons. I have upper and lower decks at home that face east. So the lower deck gets some good cool morning sun that is filtered by the upper deck as it gets to late morning and then is shaded from direct sun in the afternoon by the house.
Here is my plan:
1) Start them in RM 18s now under lights.
2) Transplant them to either 5&quot; root trapper bags or 1 gal rootbuilder II pots in 12-16 weeks after sprouting.
3) In early April, remove the leaves and place them in my unheated attached garage for 30 days to chill.
4) Place them on my lower deck for the summer.
5) Next winter, mulch in the pots and bags along the house.
6) The following spring, transplant them to 3 gal rootbuilder II pots and keep them on that lower deck for the second summer.
7) After they go dormant again, take them to the farm and plant them in permanent locations where they get good sun for most of the day but are along edges that protect them from the west so they get filtered light in the heat of the late afternoon. I'll probably try some in full sun as well.
That is my plan for pawpaw but I'll adjust as I learn over time.
Thanks,
Jack
sounds like a good plan. I also have my small seedlings in an area where they are getting a small amount of filtered sunlight but shade most of the day. They seem to be responding well.
I received my seeds today and they were also labeled 2013 seed. If you hear back from the university let us know. I'd love to get mine started right away.
todd
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
sounds like a good plan. I also have my small seedlings in an area where they are getting a small amount of filtered sunlight but shade most of the day. They seem to be responding well.
I received my seeds today and they were also labeled 2013 seed. If you hear back from the university let us know. I'd love to get mine started right away.
todd
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My plan was to head to the farm today and stay through the weekend to hunt but I had some back issues last night. Probably related to that refrigerator move. Looks like I'm hanging around the house instead, so I hope to here back today as well. I sent Sheri an email before I posted the question here but have not heard back yet. If I get the response today, I'll post it as well and then get mine into RMs.
I've got a line on some more seed as well. The seeds I'm getting are mixed (don't know which came from which) but they come from one or more of the following varieties: Sunflower, Shenandoah, 10-35, VE-21,
275-17. This is only 20 seeds.
So, I have 19 250-39 in RM 18s now, I just got 10 who knows what from KSU, and I have 20 mixed coming from a guy. That is 49 pawpaw, more than enough for my first attempt.
Thanks,
Jack
 
sorry about the back Jack. Hope it quits hurting quickly. Sucks getting old(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I will be out trying to get a good one with the smoke pole. I'll be thinking about ya.
todd
Todd,
Well, the back turned out to be two things, further degeneration as I expected (no big deal I just need to manage it) and a kidney stone. The timing kind of sucks. This has been a tough archery season. I usually have a few in the freezer by now and I've only had one shot. Muzzleloader starts Saturday.
I'm feeling fine right now and could easily hunt with one slight issue. They are having me force fluids and put me on a diuretic so every 5 minutes I'm taking a leak. I'm taking it easy this week and hoping it passes before Saturday.
Back to Pawpaw! I just heard back from Sheri. As we expected any seed labeled 2013 has been cold stratified and can be planted any time. I hope to get mine in 18s later today!
Thanks,
Jack
Pawpaw Finally! I planted the 250-39s from Cliff back on 10/18. It is now 11/13 so it has been about 3 1/2 weeks. I think I see my first pawpaw starting:
1026ff41-5054-4161-91a0-4d6850ce5c75.jpg

If you look close, slightly below the center and slightly to the right of middle you can see a pink stem loop.
Is this what they look like when they start?
Yep. That's what it looks like. Don't help the little plant if the seed coat pops up. I did that on one and killed the plant. Kinda like a persimmon. Seems like it takes forever for the little leaf to pop out of the shell.
Sorry about the kidney stone. I had one last year at this time. Had to have a Stent put in to stretch my ureter then a week later they did the lithotripsy and blasted the stone. A week later they removed the Stent and I passed all the fragments the next day. It was a miserable 2 weeks. That was my 2nd stone.
Good luck
Todd
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Yep. That's what it looks like. Don't help the little plant if the seed coat pops up. I did that on one and killed the plant. Kinda like a persimmon. Seems like it takes forever for the little leaf to pop out of the shell.
Sorry about the kidney stone. I had one last year at this time. Had to have a Stent put in to stretch my ureter then a week later they did the lithotripsy and blasted the stone. A week later they removed the Stent and I passed all the fragments the next day. It was a miserable 2 weeks. That was my 2nd stone.
Good luck
Todd
==================================
Ouch! I'm hoping mine doesn't take that long. I have a few more but they aren't blocking anything so I guess they can sit there for years before they become a problem. This will be my first. Can't say I'm looking forward to it. They really need to find a way to schedule these to become problematic outside hunting season!
I did have a few good days last week and was able to hunt some. I did take one doe with a muzzleloader. One night I almost got stuck in the stand when a wave hit just before the end of shooting time. I fortunately made it to the ground but not by much. After that experience, I hunted box blinds. I had a bad weekend and went back to the doctor on Tuesday. They are going to blast next Monday.
Thanks,
Jack
One more observation: While pawpaws look a lot like persimmons when they start, they are amazing slow by comparison. A few days after seeing a persimmon loop, it straightens up and lifts the seed from the ground. So far, the one pawpaw that has formed a stem loop has not changed at all since it first emerged.
By the way, back when I last exchanged email with Sheri and confirmed the seeds I had received were stratified, I requested that after servicing others, if she had any 2014 seeds available, that she send some so I could try the stratification process myself. Today, I received 10 more seeds from her. The bag just said pawpaw seeds with not date, so I'm presuming these are this year's seed that need to be stratified. I put them in my stratification system tonight.
Thanks,
Jack
I checked the plants today. I'm still amazed at how slow the pawpaw are growing. So far I have 8 out of 19 (or 42%) of the 250x39 that I bought from Cliff England that have developed stem loops like the one in the previous picture. So far, none of them have yet gotten to the point where they have lifted the seed from the mix.
Thanks,
Jack
I'm now up to 12 out of 19 or 63% with the 250x39 pawpaws from Cliff England. It is closing in on 40 days so I'm beginning to worry that I may be getting low germination rates. Todd, did you have any produce top growth after 40 days? I have no signs of any top growth from the KSU 2013 seed yet but they have only been in the ground for 30 days.
Got my first stem loop starting from a KSU pawpaw today!
What a difference a day makes. I'm now up to 15 of 19 or 78% for the 250x39 from Cliff England. Still just 1 of 10 for the KSU seeds but they were started later.
One more note: Based on some of the KSU research I've made a couple changes to my setup for pawpaws.
1) I normally use a 15 hour day for my indoor seedlings under lights. I've adjusted that to 16 hours for pawpaws.
2) KSU recommends bottom heat of about 90 degrees F. Evidently it not only provides better germination but also more biomass. I've added heating pads to my racks right under the rootmaker express trays. There is an air gap between the pad and the bottom of the rootmaker so all heating will be by convection not conduction. I'm estimating these should heat the soil to about 90 degrees.
Thanks,
Jack
good job on the paw paw seeds. Sounds like you are having some great success. I haven't even taken my KSU seeds out of the fridge yet. I have all my 18's taken with apple seedlings and oaks right now. I probably should order some more but that would just mean me doing more seeds and I don't want to get addicted as you(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
good job on the paw paw seeds. Sounds like you are having some great success. I haven't even taken my KSU seeds out of the fridge yet. I have all my 18's taken with apple seedlings and oaks right now. I probably should order some more but that would just mean me doing more seeds and I don't want to get addicted as you(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
The first sign of serious addiction is favorably comparing your level of addiction to others. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I did my watering and plant work this afternoon and I don't know what possessed me to go back down and check on them tonight.....you guessed it...I found another pawpaw starting. I now have 2 KSU seeds with a stem loop.
I'm still amazed at how slow the growth is compared to other seedlings I've grown. I just went back and looked at the dates in this thread. In another couple of days it will be 3 weeks since I saw the first stem loop. None of them have progressed far enough yet to actually stand up straight and completely lift the seed from the mix.
By the way, how big were yours when you transplanted them to 1 gal pots? Based on the posting dates it seems like it was only 2 months when you transplanted to 1 gal pots. How larger were they when you transplanted them? Did the other 8 seeds ever germinate? I presume you let them go dormant naturally. How tall were they when the went dormant and roughly how many leaves did they produce?
Unless mine are spending all their energy below ground, I can't imagine transplanting them before 3 or 4 months from germination.
Thanks,
Jack
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
The first sign of serious addiction is favorably comparing your level of addiction to others. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I did my watering and plant work this afternoon and I don't know what possessed me to go back down and check on them tonight.....you guessed it...I found another pawpaw starting. I now have 2 KSU seeds with a stem loop.
I'm still amazed at how slow the growth is compared to other seedlings I've grown. I just went back and looked at the dates in this thread. In another couple of days it will be 3 weeks since I saw the first stem loop. None of them have progressed far enough yet to actually stand up straight and completely lift the seed from the mix.
By the way, how big were yours when you transplanted them to 1 gal pots? Based on the posting dates it seems like it was only 2 months when you transplanted to 1 gal pots. How larger were they when you transplanted them? Did the other 8 seeds ever germinate? I presume you let them go dormant naturally. How tall were they when the went dormant and roughly how many leaves did they produce?
Unless mine are spending all their energy below ground, I can't imagine transplanting them before 3 or 4 months from germination.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I didn't have any 18's available when I started the seeds so I just started them in those little jiffy starter pellets. As soon as the tap root penetrated the pellet I put them in some 1 gallon pots I had. Then about a month later I transplanted 6 persimmon trees to my land (which freed up some rootmaker pots) and then transferred the paw paws out of the regular 1 gallon pots into the rootmakers. Mine haven't gone dormant. I have a sunroom in my house and so I brought them in before the temps got too cold. They are still as green as can be but are not putting on any top growth since I have brought them in. I may be messing up but I'm just gonna keep them in the sunroom and then transplant them at the farm next spring in tubes. I'm hoping the tubes will provide the &quot;shade&quot; that they prefer for their first full year as I plan on their permanent spot being in full sun. I read your thread about possibly removing the leafs and doing a &quot;fake&quot; dormancy but that kinda makes me a little nervous. I wanted you to be the guinea pig for that(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) .
Do you think I will kill them if I don't let them go dormant and transplant very early spring?
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
I didn't have any 18's available when I started the seeds so I just started them in those little jiffy starter pellets. As soon as the tap root penetrated the pellet I put them in some 1 gallon pots I had. Then about a month later I transplanted 6 persimmon trees to my land (which freed up some rootmaker pots) and then transferred the paw paws out of the regular 1 gallon pots into the rootmakers. Mine haven't gone dormant. I have a sunroom in my house and so I brought them in before the temps got too cold. They are still as green as can be but are not putting on any top growth since I have brought them in. I may be messing up but I'm just gonna keep them in the sunroom and then transplant them at the farm next spring in tubes. I'm hoping the tubes will provide the &quot;shade&quot; that they prefer for their first full year as I plan on their permanent spot being in full sun. I read your thread about possibly removing the leafs and doing a &quot;fake&quot; dormancy but that kinda makes me a little nervous. I wanted you to be the guinea pig for that(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) .
Do you think I will kill them if I don't let them go dormant and transplant very early spring?
==================================
As I understand it, pawpaws require about 400 chill hours. (Chill hours are calculated by a model where too warm or too cool count less or not at all. The 400 is for 36 to 40 degrees). I'm not sure if it will kill them but I'm sure it will affect development in some way.
I'm also nervous about forcing dormancy. What I plan to do is probably more aggressive (younger plants) than what your situation. Your situation seems very similar to how KSU is growing them. Look at page 780 of this: <http://www.pawpaw.kysu.edu/PDF/Layne96.pdf
It looks like they grow them in a greenhouse for the first year than then force dormancy in the fall and then over winter them outside.
My plan is to grow them under lights for only a couple months and then force dormancy in March and then grow them outside for the summer and let them go dormant naturally.
How large are yours now and how many leaves? Can you post pics?
Thanks,
Jack
Todd,
The reason I asked about pics is that I think I might be doing something wrong. Mine are so slow plus I just had one seed head snap off. The stem is black and no leaves came out of the seed. It is just a stem.
I know they are long tap rooted. Maybe they don't like being pruned so short in an 18.
Thanks,
Jack
 
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Todd,
The reason I asked about pics is that I think I might be doing something wrong. Mine are so slow plus I just had one seed head snap off. The stem is black and no leaves came out of the seed. It is just a stem.
I know they are long tap rooted. Maybe they don't like being pruned so short in an 18.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I'll get some pics of them for you. I had one that snapped off the seed head with no leafs and it died. I have some that are 5 months old and only have 2 leafs. I think this is normal. They look healthy but I noticed the leafs are starting to turn on the edges. Even though I brought them in the sunroom I think they are going to go dormant on me.
todd
I was looking back over the date and all of these germinated around the first of June. One seed didn't germinate until the July. They were not grown in the 18's but germinated in Jiffy pellets and then transplanted into a regular 1 gallon pot until I had some rootmakers available. As you can see one is in a roottrapper bag. They are in miracle grow potting soil.
Wow! They are slow. My ACs are bigger than that already. I now understand why you are reluctant to remove leaves. I may need to rethink my approach. I started with 19 250x39 and 10 from KSU. It looks like I lost one of the 250x39s and 4 show no signs of top growth yet.
At the rate things are going and based on what yours look like, I may need to rethink my plan. I'm now thinking mine will be too young and tender to force dormancy in March. I guess time will tell...
Thanks,
Jack
Well, things are still poking along. I found another 250x39 loop and another KSU loop tonight. That is 16/19 or 84% of the 250x39 but one is destine to die based on your experience and I'm up to 20% on the KSU seeds.
Got a bunch on our land in two or three different distinct groves. They bloom every year, but never make fruit.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Well, things are still poking along. I found another 250x39 loop and another KSU loop tonight. That is 16/19 or 84% of the 250x39 but one is destine to die based on your experience and I'm up to 20% on the KSU seeds.
==================================
I kept thinking the one that died (seed head broke off) would send something up from the roots but it never did. The little stem stayed upright for well over a month and then finally withered away and died.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by THE, LLC
Got a bunch on our land in two or three different distinct groves. They bloom every year, but never make fruit.
==================================
Are they in the understory? My understanding is that native trees are most often found in the understory and don't get much sunlight which makes fruiting difficult. I'm told that when they are young (first two years) they are photosensitive and need that shade but once mature fruit best in full sun.
My 250x39s are from some of Jerry Lehman's larger fruiting pawpaws. The ones from KSU are pot luck.
I plan to grow them in containers for 2 seasons where I can shade them and then plant them in full sun to maximize fruiting.
Thanks,
Jack
Quote:
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Originally Posted by THE, LLC
Got a bunch on our land in two or three different distinct groves. They bloom every year, but never make fruit.
==================================
Maybe every tree in a grove is genetically the same with all being root suckers from an original tree. If that is the case, there is no pollinator. You could try hand pollinating by taking flowers from one grove to pollinate flowers in another grove. If that leads to fruiting, you just need some diversity in each grove.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chickenlittle
Maybe every tree in a grove is genetically the same with all being root suckers from an original tree. If that is the case, there is no pollinator. You could try hand pollinating by taking flowers from one grove to pollinate flowers in another grove. If that leads to fruiting, you just need some diversity in each grove.
==================================
And this asexual reproduction accounts for the fact that they generally don't need to fruit to propagate. Eventually some overstory trees die and let enough light in for fruiting. The fruiting provides genetic diversity in the long run. The root system reproduction ensures the tree genetics will be around long enough to eventually find a mate.
I find it interesting how complex the strategies of many flora and fauna are to ensure genetics are passed on.
Finally a little good news to report. At least 2 of the 250x39s are now strong enough to lift the seed completely out of the mix. I can see the start of leaves emerging form the seed. I was really beginning to wonder. I think these take a lot more patience than most of the trees I've grown.
These are 15 of the seed I received from KSU that I planted on July 21st. They started to germinate about 3 weeks later and sent up shoots soon after. As you can see they grew up enough from that period up until last month to harden off, and the leaves were starting to turn yellow as they were beginning to go dormant for the winter. While I was planting these last week I also direct seeded a lot more along the creek on our place and hoping to get good germination out of them. I have a couple here I'll keep at the house until they're big enough to fruit....
An individual seedling transplanted by the creek running through the property...
Nice! Mine are progressing slowly. Here is a picture of the couple that have lifted the seed:
d3b48113-452f-45ea-afb1-a76472ece7dc.jpg

I appreciate you posting those pictures. It give me some confidence that mine are not progressing unusually slowly.
mine were so small I was afraid to leave them in the elements of outside and go dormant. i was afraid a strong freeze might kill them. That is one reason I brought them in my sunroom. I hope I didn't make a mistake. I have all my apple and pear seedlings up against the north side of my house and mulched real heavy with hay and leafs.
G&amp;M--please let us know how your little paw paw trees this spring.
I am planning on tubing mine next fall at the farm. Hoping the tubes will provide the shade that the young paw paw trees prefer.
todd
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
mine were so small I was afraid to leave them in the elements of outside and go dormant. i was afraid a strong freeze might kill them. That is one reason I brought them in my sunroom. I hope I didn't make a mistake. I have all my apple and pear seedlings up against the north side of my house and mulched real heavy with hay and leafs.
G&amp;M--please let us know how your little paw paw trees this spring.
I am planning on tubing mine next fall at the farm. Hoping the tubes will provide the shade that the young paw paw trees prefer.
todd
==================================
I planted about 5 that size last year that I ordered off eBay and planted them in the same area around the same time. Last winter got pretty cold with a lot of temps down in the teens and periods of ice and snow. They leafed out really well in the spring, but only put on a little more than a couple of more inches this past growing season. Perhaps this was due to the fact they are planted in mostly shade during the summer months. I tried to plant a few of these from this year in partial shade and in areas that I plan to thin out once the seedlings get well established. I know they're supposed to be slow growing anyway and establish a good strong root system the first couple of growing seasons, so I'm hoping those I planted last year take off next summer. I'll definitely give updates...
Just a short update. I just returned from a few days at the farm hunting (no luck). When I checked the pawpaw I found I'm not up to 18 of 19 of the 250x39s I got from England's have stem loops started. I have 4 out of 10 of the KSU seed with stem loop started. One of each appears to have lost the seed without producing leaves and will likely die.
 
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Things are progressing slowly. I'm now at 100% germination with the 250x39 from Cliff England. All 19 have germinated and show stem loops at a minimum.
The KSU seeds are moving forward as well. I'm up to 7 out of 10 with stem loops.
I think I am going to wait and start my ksu seeds late winter/early spring. don't have any more room under my 3 grow lights. My paw paws that I started last spring are going dormant in spite of being brought into my sunroom. I guess just the decrease amount of light is causing them to go dormant. i put them back outside so they would get some colder temps to further aid dormancy. I'm really thinking of just going ahead and planting them at the farm in tubes.
I think it was a smart move taking them outside and I'm glad they went dormant for you even with the warm temps. I think day length is one of the primary drivers. If you had left them inside, my concern would be that they might not break dormancy. I don't know the specifics of pawpaw, but some trees break dormancy based on a combination of chill units and heat units and others just rely on heat units.
The other think I would think about is hardening. Since they didn't go dormant naturally, I'd try to see if they look properly hardened. If so, you could probably plant them at the farm if you have time. If not, I'd be concerned about damage in freezing temps. If you have an attached garage or some place where they could stay in the 35 - 50 degree range, you can get chill hours without fear of damage.
Thanks,
Jack
temps for the next 10 days range from mid 30's for lows and highs in the 50's. Should be good temps for hardening off. Do you know how long it takes a little tree to hardened off? I'd really like to just get them to the farm. I can always bring them in for the night if we get some really cold weather or at least in the garage.
todd
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
temps for the next 10 days range from mid 30's for lows and highs in the 50's. Should be good temps for hardening off. Do you know how long it takes a little tree to hardened off? I'd really like to just get them to the farm. I can always bring them in for the night if we get some really cold weather or at least in the garage.
todd
==================================
Just based on the persimmon seedlings on my deck, individual seedlings seemed to harden off at different times. I'm not sure how long it may take for pawpaws of if it depends on growth stage and other things.
Some of my seed husks are dropping. Just thought I'd post a recent picture:
33fb4d79-5ce6-4784-8e73-0ada0fc53616.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
looking good Jack. Nice and slow for the paw paws
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
looking good Jack. Nice and slow for the paw paws
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Slow for sure...Nice...I'm not sure yet.
Here is one thing I think I'm learning. If the seed is not planted deep enough, the plant lifts the seed out of the soil into the air like a persimmon. However, if the seed is a little deeper, the plant can't lift it from the soil but instead pulls the leaves from the seed and leaves it in the soil. I'm beginning to think this is preferable. When the husk remains in the soil, it stays moist and flexible. The two leaves escape as they grow and it looks like a spear with a point. Then the leaves seem to open up and look nice. When the seed is lifted, the husk dries out (even if misted daily) and it becomes more difficult for the leaves to escape. The leaves come out twisted. Time will tell if this really makes a difference, but so far, my guess is that the ones that have the husk stuck in the ground will do better.
Which way did yours emerge? For mine, it is some from column A and some from column B.
Thanks,
Jack
Things seem to be speeding up a bit:
117ca980-8ed9-4bbf-9278-ed2c9a2654e8.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
once they pop out of the seeds they get a little growth spurt then--poof--back to being slow again. Maybe yours will grow faster since you have them on lights.
Back on the previous page in this thread, I mentioned that I had a seed head snap off early and the tip of the stem turned back with no leaves. Todd mentioned he had the same thing happen with one and it died.
I know that plants can sometimes do some amazing things, so I just kept treating this pawpaw like the others ignoring the fact it was likely going die. Now I'm not so sure:
ad17044b-f9a0-452f-b548-b088cc83b583.jpg

It looks to me as though this thing is trying to put leaves out through the stem.
Thanks,
Jack
I hope the little fellow makes it. Mine was outside getting some morning sun and then shade in the afternoon and dried up and died. Maybe since it isn't getting in direct sunlight it will survive
I had to leave town for about 4 days to visit relatives. I was afraid to leave the bottom heat on because they need watered much more frequently when it is on, so I turned it off before I left. The pawpaw were doing well when I returned. Some needed water but most were fine. I watered the ones that needed it and turn the bottom heat back on.
Here are the latest pics:
08a5db31-caa2-4f75-b554-a00987c7e2ef.jpg

0756fe52-6ade-412e-901e-7d49cb875e22.jpg

The first picture is all 250x39s. The three empty cells on the left in that tray are KSU pawpaws that did not germinate. The poor little guy is in the back right corner. They seem to be doing very well.
The second tray is mostly KSU trees. The front row is 250x39s and there is one 250x39 in the second row that only has a stem loop showing. The rest are KSU.
I'm pretty happy with the results so far.
Thanks,
Jack
Just some updated pictures:
c28ea96e-1b2f-4ca7-8529-a24e97947672.jpg

3e22b667-61dd-4bd8-a44c-00b6f068b835.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
Updated Pics as of today:
d5154329-4f78-4858-b19e-ad0a00b1d532.jpg

The three on the left are KSU seeds that didn't germinate. The rest are 250x39 from England's.
639dee60-683b-4f9c-9cde-8e7da4beb7d6.jpg

These are individually labeled. In general, the ones up front are 250x39 and the rest KSU.
Looking good. How is the one doing that lost the seed head after germination?
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Looking good. How is the one doing that lost the seed head after germination?
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Still alive, but not showing much hope for survival.
 
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I received my 2014 KSU seeds on 11/10/14 and put them in a ziplock with damp sphagnum in the crisper. It has been over 60 days so I decided to plant them today. I pulled them out and soaked them in tepid water for a bit to make sure they are fully hydrated. I was surprised. When I did, over 1/2 of them floated. I know this is generally means most nuts or seeds are not viable, but I don't know enough about pawpaw to be sure, so I decided to plant them all. I now have 9 of these seeds in 18s 5 of which were floaters. It is be interesting to see what germination rates are for these.
I think it has been long enough to talk about success rates for my first pawpaws planted a couple months ago.
All 19 of the 250x39 seeds from Cliff England germinated. Two of them had issues extracting the leaves from the seed husk and likely will not survive. That puts me at about an 86% success rate with the 250x39s.
With the 2013 KSU seeds, only 7 out of 10 germinated. Two of them are having issues extracting the leaves from the seed husk and likely will not survive. The puts me at 50% for the KSU seeds.
Thanks,
jack
My success was right at 50% with the seeds i started last spring. As you know one died that lost it's first leafs in the husk and the other ones did not germinate.
good job
todd
Just wanted up update with a recent picture. The tray in from is the 2014 KSU seeds that were just planted. The rest are thickening up pretty well.
18598798-6ed5-4179-8256-6fb0d398b11c.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
 
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I usually have a ton of them in my timber.They really shade a lot out and don't provide much so I cut a lot of them down.They don't usuaully have many limbs.I have eaten some Papas and they weren't bad,if anyone needs seeds I can check for some this summer
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Originally Posted by buckdeer1
I usually have a ton of them in my timber.They really shade a lot out and don't provide much so I cut a lot of them down.They don't usuaully have many limbs.I have eaten some Papas and they weren't bad,if anyone needs seeds I can check for some this summer
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Pawpaws are tricky. They are an understory tree as you have observed, but they don't generally produce a lot of fruit in the shade. They primarily produce asexually in the understory. They can live for many generations this way. However when things change and conditions are right, they produce sexually and fruit. Evidently these conditions occur enough in nature for sufficient genetic diversity.
Because they are an understory tree, they are very sensitive to too much sunlight in the first couple of years. Folks planting them for fruit often put up artificial shade for the first season or two.
They evidently don't transplant very well so it kind of limits how we can use them in a wildlife management program.
My plan is to grow them in containers for 2 years where I can control sun exposure easily. By then they should be old enough to plant in full sun which should make them fruit well.
They require cross-pollination to make them fruit, so I would love to get some native pawpaw seeds next summer. Please keep me in mind. This year I bought some specific cross seeds at $5 per pop! I was also able get 10 seeds from KSU from 2013 and 9 from 2014. My germination rates were great on my expensive seeds but down around 50% so far for the KSU seeds.
Thanks,
jack
Seems like they could provide some cover to open woods where timber cutting is not practical or possible. Do they drop their leaves?
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
They require cross-pollination to make them fruit
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Your thoughts are that the KSU ones are from the same tree and thus won't make fruit if that's all that is planted?
Any grown from seed, like the KSU seeds, will pollinate each other.
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Originally Posted by chickenlittle
Any grown from seed, like the KSU seeds, will pollinate each other.
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That's what I was thinking.....I guess I misunderstood what Jack was trying to say.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
That's what I was thinking.....I guess I misunderstood what Jack was trying to say.
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I may not have been clear. In nature they propagate asexually so when you see a stand of pawpaw, they are not pollenating each other. If they are fruiting, there are genetically different trees nearby somewhere pollinating them.
I believe KSU is the keeper of the germplasm for pawpaw. I don't believe the seeds come from any specific variety. They are just a mix of seeds from the pawpaw they are growing. I think it is a mixed bag and they should be genetically different. Keep in mind as someone mentioned, any pawpaw grown from seed will have about 50% of the genetics coming from a different tree and thus be genetically different. Even if the same father tree pollinated all the fruit, offspring trees will have different combinations of the DNA.
As for me, my primary trees are 250x39. They are the product of a hand pollenated cross between the same two parent trees. The reason I got the KSU seeds is to add some genetic diversity. I'd like to add more and am hoping to get some seeds from native trees next year.
The point I was trying to make in that previous post was that because they reproduce so easily asexually, they can live for many generations without fruiting in an understory. When forest conditions change and things are right, they then propagate sexually. This is enough to keep the species going. I'm also not saying they don't fruit in an understory. They clearly do. I'm just saying that they fruit much more prolifically in full sun
Thanks,
Jack
Finally got around to starting my KSU paw paw seeds. I started them in a the Jiffy Peat Pellets. I did my other ones this way and it worked pretty good. The pellets have a soft mesh that the tap root will grow out the bottom. As soon as I tap roots pops out of the mesh then they will be transplanted into 1 gallon rootmaker pots. Right now all my 18 cells RM are being used with apples and oaks.
I'll keep you updated on the germination success.
todd
My calculations say that I should be transplanting my pawpaws from the cells to 1 gal RBIIs about the middle of February. They say it is better to transplant them too early rather than too late, so I decided to transplant my first one tonight. They are definitely ready for transplant, no mix fell from the roots when I extracted them. Here is a picture of the extracted roots.
5f692e8c-47c4-4b5a-a990-49cd4e96848b.jpg

I could let them go longer, but I think they are ready. Here is the transplanted seedling:
07a46908-47e3-4dde-a772-6dee0c9b927e.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
Looks great Jack. My KSU seeds have been in a homemade green house in potting soil for over 2 weeks and nothing yet. SLOWWWWWWWW
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Looks great Jack. My KSU seeds have been in a homemade green house in potting soil for over 2 weeks and nothing yet. SLOWWWWWWWW
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Join the club on their lack of speed!
Back on January 19th, my 2014 KSU seed had been stratified for 60 days so I planted them. Today I found the first signs of life. Three of the 9 seed now show small stem loops.
Thanks,
Jack
I'm now up to 6 of 9 with stem loops!
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I'm now up to 6 of 9 with stem loops!
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This literally made me LOL......I have been checking mine for what seems like YEARS!
Finally.....I see loops...I have LOOPS! Hahah!
Next year I am buying them!
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
This literally made me LOL......I have been checking mine for what seems like YEARS!
Finally.....I see loops...I have LOOPS! Hahah!
Next year I am buying them!
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I considered buy them but I couldn't find a good scenario. Unless you find someone that grows them in rootmakers, tap roots will be long. Root training pots do some pruning, but you still end up with a tap root too long for a 1 gal RM 2.
When I started digging into pawpaw I found that they don't deal with full sun well when young but produce the best in full sun when mature. So, my approach is to grow them in 1 gal RM2 pots at home where I can easily control sun exposure for the first growing season and transplant them to 3 Gal RM2s for the second growing season. After that, they should be old enough to handle full sun.
Cliff England told me they will root prune in 18s where you will get less tap root than the more traditional method of using root training containers. I figured this will let me use 1 and 3 gal containers which are manageable.
If you buy them and plant them, you may want to try rigging something in the field to shade them for the first couple years.
Thanks,
Jack
 
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Of my 10 KSU seeds that were planted the last of January I have 4 now that have germinated. Not out of the seed yet but they 4 do have little loops and the seesd is pushing out of the soil.
I decided to plant my 5 little pawpaw seeds that I started last spring. They were dormant and I didn't feel like messing with them the all year. I picked a nice shady spot in some pecan saplings. I will let them grow there for the next couple of years then I will release them by cutting down the pecans. I also tubed them and this spring I will spray all the grass around the tubes to reduce competition. I will keep you informed on how they do.
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Of my 10 KSU seeds that were planted the last of January I have 4 now that have germinated. Not out of the seed yet but they 4 do have little loops and the seesd is pushing out of the soil.
I decided to plant my 5 little pawpaw seeds that I started last spring. They were dormant and I didn't feel like messing with them the all year. I picked a nice shady spot in some pecan saplings. I will let them grow there for the next couple of years then I will release them by cutting down the pecans. I also tubed them and this spring I will spray all the grass around the tubes to reduce competition. I will keep you informed on how they do.

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That looks like a nice approach.
I took a picture of the pawpaws for another purpose today and thought I'd update this thread:
e0c23a8f-2ba6-48e9-aae7-1dbb9f7d75ec.jpg

There has not been a huge amount of growth since I transplanted them, but here they are.
Thanks,
Jack
Those look really good Jack.....I waited to start mine until February.....big mistake! They are just now starting to lift the nut in the air! 2 months of the SLOWEST growth possible! Haha
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
Those look really good Jack.....I waited to start mine until February.....big mistake! They are just now starting to lift the nut in the air! 2 months of the SLOWEST growth possible! Haha
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After a planting a couple batches, I've learned I'm better off if they don't lift the seed. When the lift it out of the soil, sometimes it dries out and they get stuck. I've started planting mine a little deeper. If you keep them damp during germination, generally the soil will hold the seed and the stem will pull the leaves from the seed. I think that is the way it is supposed to work.
I just got some more seeds in the mail yesterday that I plan to plant tonight.
Thanks,
Jack
 
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When I first took those pawpaws outside this spring, they seemed to stall out. I guess they needed a rest. Some are now putting on new growth. Here is the best tree:
d083919f-a6a3-4d09-81c2-b5a98aeecb68.jpg

The small ones in the 5&quot; bags in the background are ones I started late this spring from seed someone sent me.
Thanks,
Jack
looks good. My seeds that i received from KSU are doing awesome. I think I had 8 germinate out of the 12. I have been babying them at home and have them growing in one of my dog runs that has honeysuckle growing over the top of it so it is mostly shade with a little filtered sunlight. They are doing so much better than the ones I grew last year and kept in full sun. I will let them go dormant and then plant this winter at the farm in tubes next to the other ones.
I will get some pics of them later.
todd
Look way better than mine.......they had a good spurt after I put them into 1 gal bags, but they have looked the same for a while. Not really sure what the deal is. They get about 4 hours of AM sun then shade.......who knows but I will keep them going!
I have come to the conclusion that the best amount of direct sunlight for young pawpaw is zero.
I put my pawpaws out on my lower deck in the middle of April. It gets an hour or two of early morning sun followed by filtered sun through about noon followed by shade for the rest of the day.
Everything looked healthy but had pretty much stalled out and stopped growing. By the middle of May, I decided to do an experiment. I took two of the largest healthiest looking tree and put them in a spot that get full sun for 4 hours followed by shade. After a weed or so it was clear that I was damaging those trees.
Here were the trees in general in mid-May:
32af7ef9-5ee7-407d-88c6-929c5c4a67b4.jpg

Here are the two I moved to full morning sun after a week or so:
2a68dce3-9ee2-4985-9b89-7a9a43490e60.jpg

I moved them back to their original location. While I think they may survive, they really got hurt buy this.
The trees on my lower deck are in rows. During that first hour or two of early morning sun, the front row shades the second row and the front two row shades the third and so on since the sun is coming in laterally.
When I look at the trees in general, those that are further back getting the least sun are clearly doing the best.
I plan to overwinter mine. I'm going to let them go dormant naturally and then put them in a cold room where I will keep the temperature above freezing but below 50 degrees for the winter. Next spring, I plan to transplant them to 3 gal RB2 containers. I will keep them on that same lower deck.
As I understand it, by the third season, they can handle full sun, so when they go dormant next year, I 'll plant them in the field.
Thanks,
Jack
I don't remember the exact planting date this spring but here are 2 of the 6 seeds from KSU that germinated. These plants have never seen direct sunlight and are a good 3X larger then the ones from last year that I raised in direct sunlight.

Jack--the ones I kept in direct sunlight last year never got any sun damage like yours but they were very slow growers. Only developed about 4 smaller leafs before they went dormant. I had 5 make it last year and I planted them at my farm in tubes late winter when they were still dormant. Only 3 of the 5 woke up. I think these will do better.
Todd,
Those look very nice! It is interesting how mine were damaged from the sun and yours were just slow growers.
Thanks,
jack
I'm contemplating another option for propagating pawpaws - Stooling. I saw on another forum where a guy cut down a 3 year old tree in March below the soil line and the root system produced 20 suckers. The tree was in full sun, and the suckers were fine in full sun. He seemed to think they grew much faster than from seed.
I still plan to plant most of mine next year after the second season in RM2s kept in the shade. However, I was thinking that if I wait until the following spring with a couple of them and cut them down and cover them with more mix in the 3 gal pots, perhaps they will stool. Since they won't have a tap root and these pots unwrap so easily, it should be easy to separate them if it works.
Thoughts?
I have found some paw paw trees on my place in Adams co. Ohio,
I would like to propagate some from seed, how do I go about
Doing this, thanks Joe
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Originally Posted by Ohio native
I have found some paw paw trees on my place in Adams co. Ohio,
I would like to propagate some from seed, how do I go about
Doing this, thanks Joe
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Collect the seed and clean all pulp off then they need a 60 day cold stratification in the fridge.
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Originally Posted by Ohio native
I have found some paw paw trees on my place in Adams co. Ohio,
I would like to propagate some from seed, how do I go about
Doing this, thanks Joe
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There are several methods. You can direct seed them (after stratification), but they are very, very slow. The approach I used was starting them indoors under lights in root pruning pots. You can go back to the beginning of this thread and see what I did for details.
KSU has some great PDF files with good information for growing them. One thing that I found really helped was using bottom heat. I put a heating pad under my Rootmaker 18s. If you do this, you need to water frequently to keep them from drying out, but it really speeds growth. After 12-16 weeks, I transplanted them to 1 gal Rootbuilder II pots.
One key point: Pawpaws are photo sensitive for the first 2 years. They generally grow as an understory tree when young. Direct sun will often kill them. Folks who direct seed them often put up artificial shade for the first couple years. If you plant them in the understory, they will live, but when they mature, they won't produce fruit as well as if they are in good sun.
My approach is to grow them in root pruning containers for the first two years on my lower shaded deck. So, I'm probably limiting potential growth the first year by not upsizing the container, but I don't have room to overwinter the larger containers. I'll transplant them to the 3 gal Rootbuilder II pots next spring. If you go back in this thread, you will see pictures of two trees I experimented with and put in a little more sun for a few days. They were scorched and I'm sure would have died had I not moved them back into the shade. After they go dormant next fall, I will plant them in their permanent locations in full sun.
Thanks,
Jack
 
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My pawpaws spent the winter in my cold room. Most are in 1 gal RB2 and some are in 5&quot; root trapper bags. I took a look at the weather prediction for the month. It is not real reliable that far out, but I don't see a hard frost and it only gets close once or twice.
So, I decided to put my pawpaws out today. They are all on my lower deck like last year. My plan is to wait until I see some sign of breaking dormancy. As soon as I see that, I will transplant individual trees into 3 gal RB2s. If we do get a morning of frost down the road, the insulation provided by the mix around the newly transplanted root ball should be enough insulation to protect the roots. This should give them a good early start. If the weather forecast changes, I can always take them back inside over night if I really have to.
All of my trees are now out of the cold room. They are either dormant pawpaws just put outside or they were brought indoors and put under lights a while back.
Thanks,
Jack
well as you know I didn't over winter my pawpaws. I planted them early fall in 4 ft tubes. Now I'm just waiting for them to come out of dormancy and see how many survived the winter.
I put my pawpaws out side a while ago. They are calling for lows between 34 and 28 between Saturday and Tuesday and then it warms up again. So, I decided to start transplanting some of my pawpaws to 3 gal RB2s. I figure the insulation by the added mix in the larger container will protect any roots for that short period. I decided to use these for a biochar experiment. More on that on the <Biochar thread.
As I was transplanting, I noticed that a few are just starting to put out leaves. Here is one:
48d365b8-f87b-493a-8fff-f1f97702af78.jpg

Since they produced these leaves after being outside for a while, not with indoor heat and light, I presume they can handle the frost, but to be safe, I'll probably keep a couple with leaves indoors until Wednesday.
I guess time will tell, but if all of these trees survive, I'm not sure I'll have places to plant them all!
Thanks,
Jack
good deal on your pawpaws. I checked mine on Wednesday at the farm and they are all still dormant inside the tubes (at least I hope they are dormant and not dead). Some will be starting their 3rd spring. I removed the tubes and cleaned all the deaf leaves out and re-tubed.
I was shed hunting and I have a thick patch of pawpaw and they are still dormant with no signs of buds.The pawpaw may be one of the few trees that grow under the canapy.All the patches I know of the trees or barely a foot apart.If you need seed remind me and I will pick all you can use.
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Originally Posted by buckdeer1
I was shed hunting and I have a thick patch of pawpaw and they are still dormant with no signs of buds.The pawpaw may be one of the few trees that grow under the canapy.All the patches I know of the trees or barely a foot apart.If you need seed remind me and I will pick all you can use.
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Do they fruit well?
Most of the grafted paw paws that I have planted are covered with little green flowers this year that are still a long way from opening. You see the flowers a long before you see any leaves forming. The Sunflower variety which is only about 6 feet tall so far is literally covered all over. I ate several from it and some of the others last year. One of the seedling paw paws that I planted from Wildlife Group also has flowers forming on it for the first time this year.
Most years they do,I don't always go back in that part after shed hunting but have been there a couple times and there was fruit then
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Originally Posted by buckdeer1
Most years they do,I don't always go back in that part after shed hunting but have been there a couple times and there was fruit then
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You probably have other pawpaws that you don't know about. As I understand it they won't fertilizer themselves. They need a genetically different tree. When trees are only a foot or two away from each other, it usually means they were propagated by root suckers. So, a tight cluster of pawpaws usually consists of genetically identical trees. This means that if they are producing fruit with viable seeds, they must be being pollinated by some other tree. You may want to look around the general area as you may have more than you've found.
Thanks,
Jack
Of the 6-8 seeds I got last year, I ended up with 2 nice trees. Ended up about 10&quot; tall at the end of the year. I had WAY too many trees already so I gave them away to a friend.
I have a dozen started this year......I hate them. Between paw paws and DCO.....not sure which is more frustrating!!! Hope for 4-6 good ones this year!!
 
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Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
Of the 6-8 seeds I got last year, I ended up with 2 nice trees. Ended up about 10&quot; tall at the end of the year. I had WAY too many trees already so I gave them away to a friend.
I have a dozen started this year......I hate them. Between paw paws and DCO.....not sure which is more frustrating!!! Hope for 4-6 good ones this year!!
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Too bad you're not closer. I'll probably end up with more pawpaws than I can use.
Due to freezing temps, I brought all my pawpaws in. Here is a pic. The chestnut trees on the right are the AU Buck chestnuts.
b0134172-2acd-4f8a-908f-3fa292e86915.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
I am not an expert by any means but one thing I do know (which is also the reason I planted some on my property), is that the pawpaw is the only host plant for the Zebra Swallowtail. This is one of my favorite butterflies so I have a few on my property. MDC was sold out of pawpaws by the time I ordered so I am hoping to get more next year.
I put all of the 3 gal RB2 pawpaws and the 5&quot; bagged papaws out today. I kept the 1 gal RB2 pawpaws inside because I'll be transplanting them to 3 gals over the next couple days. I also took out all my other trees that are in 1 gals or larger to begin acclimating them to the outside. All of the trees I took out that have leaves are on my lower deck that only gets a couple hours of morning sun. I have some jujube sprouts that never leafed out. I pruned them back and they are till green. Jujube root cuttings are notoriously slow to produce top growth, so I'm not going to give up on these sprouts yet. Since they have no leaves, I put them along with the grafted apples that have not yet leafed out on my upper deck that gets more sun. I do have 2 apple grafts that just opened up so to be safe, I'm starting those on the lower deck.
After the rest of the 1 gal pawpaws are transplanted, I'll decide what to do with the 5&quot; bagged pawpaws.
About 25% of the pawpaws have started producing small green leaves.
Thanks,
Jack
 
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END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS
 
It has been a while since I posted a picture of these. Here is one taken tonight:

c346c653-2044-4ade-9dc6-a1384d246a8c.jpg


Thanks,

Jack
 
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I've got 5 paw-paws that are all over 5 years old. Appear to be very healthy....but just no fruit. 2 of them had fruit, one year. That's been it. I have a bunch of other fruit trees that I spray regularly with various fungicide/insecticide blends. I hit the PawPaws as well.
Does anyone have any ideas what I can do to get them to produce fruit?
 
Well, there are a few things to consider. If they are flowering, they are probably old enough. The first thing that comes to my mind is pollination. First, pawpaws can not pollinate themselves. In nature when we see pawpaws that don't fruit well it is often because they are an understory tree. They propagate asexually through the root system and you often find them in clusters of clonal duplicates which cannot pollinate each other. On top of that, with less sun in the understory, they don't fruit as well as in full sun. Pawpaws use an unusual pollination strategy. The flowers smell rancid like something rotting so they tend to attract flies not bees. Flies are less reliable pollinators than bees so the distance between trees can be an issue. Of course any trees grown from seed can pollinate each other. So, if you planted trees that are all grafted to the same variety, that would be a problem since they are clones. If the trees are otherwise healthy and growing well and flowering, I'd think about pollination.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I can stand anywhere on our farm and see a paw paw patch. I'm betting that in a good year I could gather a pickup load of them in a day from one small farm. I've never did anything to directly promote them.
I can tell you the natural process that got them like this though. There were a few thickets that had existed for years with lots of seedlings randomly placed by a deers digestive tract all through the understory of the woods. The seed bank was loaded and primed to take action when large swaths of the canopy were opened up by downed and broken trees in the great derecho of 2011. The result was loads of paw paws springing forth anywhere they got light where they weren't before.
I think the same results could be achieved artificially by planting seedlings under a "junk" tree where they would only receive dappled light for a few years, then sawing the nurse tree down and letting them take off. By doing this with a few nurse trees in close proximity, each sown with seed from different paw paw parents you would stand a really good chance at getting them established.
I don't think I could have ever purposely cultivated paw paws to the extent that I have them. They drop in a relatively short time period so the attraction doesn't last long. During those two weeks or so you won't have to guess where the deer are though. I don't think you could drive them out of those paw paw thickets with a club during that time.
 
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