An early wakeup - Jujube and Persimmon -Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Last summer I started a boat load of persimmons from seed for rootstock. Most got planted last fall, but I transplanted 40 of them to 1 gal rootmakers to keep to try my hand at bench grafting next spring. I also tried my hand at growing Jujube from root cuttings and got 4 of them to make it.

I think both may be too small in diameter to graft next spring. So, I decided to wake them up early. I let them all go dormant naturally. I did some digging and estimated how many chill hours were required. The weekend before Christmas I brought them all indoors and put them in one of my indoor greenhouses in the basement.

I was beginning to wonder if I did not give them enough chill hours. There has been no sign of life up until now. Today, I saw my first indication of life:

I know the pics are a bit fuzzy, but if you look closely you can see a couple small green leaves beginning to form.

The persimmons are still not showing much sign:

Here is one bud that may be starting to get a little greenish. This doesn't worry me yet since persimmons are usually one of the last trees to green-up in the spring.

 

[yoderjac]

Still nothing promising from the persimmons, but the Jujube are leafing out nicely:

 

[yoderjac]

the persimmons are still alive??? Maybe they are just a little slower waking up.

 

[yoderjac]

I presume they are still alive. The stems are flexible. They are generally late to leaf out compared to our other trees. That is my assumption (and hope) as to what is going on here. Other possibilities:

1) Since I started them during the summer, they did not have enough time to completely harden off before winter.

2) I brought them in too early without enough chill hours. (I could not find a definitive answer on chill hours). I tried to be conservative based on what I was told.

They all looked very healthy before they went dormant and held their leaves for quite a long time.

It will be interesting to see how many make it.

I also screwed up one of the Jujubes and it will be interesting to see if it recovers. I was pruning the smallest one which had multiple stems coming from the root system. I wanted to get a primary leader going so I get enough growth to graft it. I accidently cut the entire thing down! I wonder if the root system will send up another shoot. I'm hoping it will, but this is by far my smallest jujube.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

have you done a little scratch test with your fingernail to see if you have green cambium under the bark??

Hope your jujube makes it.

todd

No. I still have faith. I think my Jujube start leafing out about 3 weeks before persimmons on the farm. I'll give it a few more weeks before I worry.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, my mulberry cuttings are waking up...yay!!!

I am chomping at the bit to make my Missouri Gravel Bed....

Good job on the Jujube...you should definitely use your gut on the persimmon.

 

[yoderjac]

I have a friend with a couple mulberry trees but he can't remember which is female. I plan to go mark them next year and then take truncheons next November and give that method a try.

 

[yoderjac]

I've never even heard of jujube before I saw this thread. Quick google search calls them Chinese dates and says they are pretty invasive in other parts of the world.

Are there jujubes that are native to the US, or are they introduced?

Sean,

Yes, they are Chinese dates and non-native to the US. If not managed properly they can propagate through the root system and thicket. David Osborn wrote a good article on using them for deer a few years ago. My documentation thread has the full reference: http://www.qrgc-forums.org/QRGC_Forums/yaf_postst163_Jujube-Fruit-Trees-for-Deer.aspx

Root system propagation was one of the primary issues I started exploring. Here is how I resolved it for myself. Most Jujube are grafted to wild jujube rootstock. It tends to propagate through the root system and produce thickets of thorny trees with little fruit and of poor quality. If you plant trees like this, it is important to keep the area surrounding them bushhogged to prevent this. There doesn't seem to be any issue of invasiveness through seed propagation like autumn olive.

I could have simply purchased grafted Jujube and kept the surrounding area bushhoged (plant in a clover field or something), but I was concerned about the long run. What if something happens to me down the road and I can't do the proper maintenance. One thing that attracted me to this tree is that once established, it requires very little maintenance. There are no insect or disease issues so there is no spraying. They don't need to be pruned. So, once established, you just let them go except for the bushhogging.


Instead, I was able to find one of the varieties that had good characteristics for deer and was grown on its own roots. This tends to be much less invasive in terms of root propagation and if it does propagate through the root system, the trees should be identical to the parent tree in terms of fruit production and quality. So, this turns a potential negative into a positive.

This variety I started with is Tigertooth. I can tell you for a fact that it is not invasive based on how hard it was to propagate via root cuttings. Out of a dozen or so I tried using rooting hormone, only 4 made it and this was giving them every advantage I could. I'm starting a bunch more this year from root cuttings. Time will tell if I get better at it.

I would like to add other varieties of Jujube for a larger range of drop times. I just can't find much else grown on its own rootstock. So, my plan is to propagate these Jujube and graft other varieties on to the Tigertooth rootstock. That way I can get a variety of fruit without having the issue of invasiveness. If the trees do propagate through the root system, the off spring will be Tigertooth.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Last year was my first year at growing persimmons but they leafed out WAY later in the house compared to anything else I was growing. I kept thinking they were toast but kept them watered anyways. 9/10 made it. As long as they are green they should be fine, I would think chilling requirements have been met at this point given the year we've had.

Thanks for the encouragement. That is kind of what I expected but it is good to hear it from others that have been through it.

When did you start your persimmons? Many of mine did not germinate until July, so they have a very short growing season before they went dormant. You can see from the pictures how small they are.

 

[yoderjac]

Very cool. I had never heard of it before. Always fun to learn something new.

 

[yoderjac]

Still no signs from the persimmons, but the Jujube are doing very well:

 

[yoderjac]

I have access to a hothouse so was thinking the same thing.My northern persimmons also are pretty small 4-8".Some from texas are very big 15"no problem grafting them.I am waiting to see them come out naturally.To see if their root systems can take the cold.Had a few day below 0 and quite a few single didgits this year.If they make it potted this year I will know they are good to go for the north.I will be keeping track!

 

[yoderjac]

Your Jujubes do look good!

Well, that one does. Look at the seemingly empty rootmaker pot to the right of that one in the picture. I had a nice Jujube growing in it. It had multiple stems, so I decided to prune the small ones to leave a single leader to which I could graft later.

Well....fat fingers, I accidently snipped of the main leader as well as the others!

They sure are hardy. Sure enough, if I look close, I can see the root system is starting to put out some tiny leaves from beneath the soil. Within another week, I expect I'll see a new trunk. I likely won't be able to bench graft it this spring, but I'll still have a tree!

 

[yoderjac]

The first persimmon to start waking up is becoming more obvious:

 

[yoderjac]

Good deal---they just weren't quite ready to wake up from their nap.

While they are painfully slow (or I'm painfully impatient), I'm starting to see early signs from a few more. My nervousness over the persimmons is beginning to quell a bit.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, both bad news and good news to report. The bad news first. That first persimmon to form a green bud has now turned grey and the bud never opened:

On the upside, the Jujube are doing great and a second persimmon has turned green. This one actually has small leaves opening:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Do you think you woke up the persimmons a little too early?

That is quite possible. time will tell. It did work very well for the jujube, but they require fewer chill hours.

 

[yoderjac]

How many chill hours do you estimate that your plants got before waking them?

I guess it depends on how you calculate them. With a simple model of temps less than 45 I'm sure they got plenty. We had an exceptionally cold late fall and early winter. However, I recently learned there is a more sophisticated model that excludes temperatures below freezing. I had not considered that. I don't have a way to go back and calculate the hours.

By the way, I found a second tree with a couple small leaves this afternoon so it looks like at least some of them are going to make it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I spoke with Roger Meyers today. It looks like my Jujube scions are on the way. The jujubes seem to be flourishing:

The persimmons are still iffy. The best one seems to be doing well, but nothing seems to be following in its footsteps yet:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

When I looked in to propagating Jujube, most sources said that you were wasting your time trying to propagate by stem cuttings but root cuttings were possible so that is what I focused on. I watched a youtube video today showing someone with success starting them from dormant stem cuttings:

I had some extra tigertooth jujube scions with no takers. So, today I decided rather than keeping them in storage which I'll need for my incoming persimmon scions, I'd try to root them.

I put 5 large scions in roottrapper bags after dipping them in dip-n-grow. I also did two small ones with the T-cut she showed in the video that you can see on the right in the rootmaker cells.